[A concise version of this article is available at http://tinyurl.com/ronytan2]
Though Pastor Rony Tan has already apologised for his gross misrepresentations of Buddhism in his video interviews, many of these misrepresentations remain unclarified in a point by point manner. As the videos are publicly viewable, clarifications on them should be publicly available too. Since the videos are full of misconceptions, please do not view them without also reading the clarifications. Please do not circulate them without the clarifications either. May this article serve to create more right understanding of Buddhism. May all co-exist in peace and harmony.
Interview with an ‘Ex-Nun’
http://youtube.com/watch?v=EIrtk5V_t-Q
Clarifications
1. If the account by the interviewee is true, she was offering probable proof on the validity of the phenomenon of rebirth that is worth further investigation. Rebirth remains to be the only viable explanation of how children and adults in deep meditation have fresh memories of detailed past experiences in past lives, many of which are verifiable upon proper research. For more about time-tested scientific research on rebirth, please refer to the detailed works of Dr. Ian Stevenson.
2. ‘Pu Men Pin’ is the ‘Chapter on the Universal Door’, from the Lotus Sutra; not as mentioned, the ‘Goddess of Mercy Sutra’, though the chapter does centre around the enlightened Guanyin (Avalokiteshvara) Bodhisattva, who personifies perfect compassion, and is commonly mistaken as a mere goddess.
3. The voice the interviewee heard could be that of a guiding unseen being with good intentions, instead of a demon. To know if such voices are evil or illusory, we should use our wisdom to mindfully discern if that heard makes sense objectively. Even those of other faiths do hear supernormal voices at times.
4. Though the interviewer could not look ‘behind the scene’ to objectively expose what he believed to be a magic trick, he jumped to the conclusion that it was simply so.
5. It is not true that all males are better than females as it is obvious that there are many females who are more virtuous, wise and successful than many males.
6. As many animals take various initiatives to protect and rescue humans, their kind and even other animals in need, some animals can be more proactively moral than some humans.
7. It is indeed impossible to become a high-ranking monk in one’s first lifetime because there is no discernible first lifetime in the innumerable rounds of rebirth. There must also be something done to deserve whatever one experiences due to karmic cause and effect.
8. The Buddha’s last words were ‘Subject to change are all conditioned things. Strive on with diligence.’ He was urging us to strive on the way (the Noble Eightfold Path) to liberation that he already discovered, walked and shared.
Interview with an ‘Ex-Monk’ (Part 1)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=pKBzyatd880
Clarifications
1. Details of the temple that asked the so-called ex-nun to leave should be given – for further investigation as to whether such an incident did happen. Genuine healing happens very often in many religions, including Buddhism.
2. The interviewee wasn’t a real Buddhist monk, as he was only a novice for two weeks. A real monk would not have such poor and erroneous knowledge of Buddhism, as demonstrated in these videos.
3. No true Buddhist monk would only aspire to go to an impermanent heaven after death; but aspire for Nirvana instead.
4. There are no Buddhist mantras in Pali as mantras are in Sanskrit (which might be transliterated into other languages).
5. Mantra-chanting is not merely for protection, but for nurturing certain virtues too.
6. Buddhists have no need to protect themselves from gods, who are mostly good, unless it is Mara (the chief heavenly demon) and his minions. However, when one protects one’s mind with high moral integrity, there already is protection with the natural force of truth and goodness. The term ‘devils’ is not used in Buddhism.
7. The interviewee should have learnt more about the so-called ‘mantra’ before practising it. Not doing so was to follow blindly – which the Buddha would not approve.
8. Mantras are not arbitrary strings of words with arbitrary meanings like ‘oo oo ee ah ah tink tank wala bing bang’. They are specific sacred syllables with profound meanings.
9. As Buddhism sees the existence of a creator God as illusory, it is not a Buddhist goal to be greater than God. Buddhism teaches that nature (re)creates nature naturally. However, the Buddha did teach that there is a god who had mistaken himself to have created the world, who acknowledged the spiritual superiority of the Buddha. In Buddhist cosmology, even wise gods, who were previously very virtuous humans, seek to learn the path to liberation from the Buddha before they eventually fall from their heavens due to the depletion of their limited positive karma. The Buddha is thus greater than all gods, who has broken free of the cycle of rebirth, and is also known as the ‘Teacher of Humans and Gods’. The Buddha taught that we can all become Buddhas like him – an enlightened one with perfect compassion and wisdom.
10. Reincarnation refers to the idea of an unchanging soul taking upon a new form from one life to the next, while rebirth refers to the truth of an ever-changing consciousness that goes from one life to the next. It is due to this constant change that spiritual betterment and perfection is possible.
11. With the precise and intricate workings of the law of karma, one’s rebirth is guaranteed to never be by chance, but by virtue of the quality of one’s intentional thoughts, words and deeds before dying.
12. There are many animals in this world because it is relatively not easy to have the precious human rebirth, which requires more positive karma, virtue and wisdom.
Interview with an ‘Ex-Monk’ (Part 2)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=dEfQwBu5ZWE
Clarifications
13. A novice who does not understand the Buddha’s teachings well cannot bless any devotee effectively.
14. The rationale of some monastics’ refraining from entertainment (e.g. television and radio) is to keep sensual indulgence of sight and sound to a minimum, so as to better cultivate their minds for greater calmness and clarity.
15. The rationale of refraining from handling money in some Buddhist traditions is to minimise attachment to material wealth, which could distract them from seeking spiritual wealth.
16. The temple should be named for verifying any truth in the interviewee’s account.
17. The interviewee confessed that he didn’t practise his meditation well due to having many stray thoughts. He is thus not a good candidate to testify for the efficacy of Buddhist meditation, much more of the path to Nirvana.
18. The interviewee described the path to Nirvana haphazardly and incompletely. A brief yet comprehensive way to describe it is that it requires walking at least the Noble Eightfold Path.
19. The interviewer says Buddhists go ‘ang chang yang yang’ in temples, and that it’s music to him. Suttas (and Sutras) chanted are not arbitrary strings of words with arbitrary meanings. They are specific sacred teachings with profound meanings. The tunes used are to facilitate rhythmic pronunciation, pacing and memorisation.
20. Nirvana is not easy to define in words just as the personal experience of happiness is hard to be put into words. Nirvana is the perfectly blissful state of liberation from all causes of suffering, that the historical Buddha realised in person and taught about. The speed at which it is attained depends on how diligently one practises the Noble Eightfold Path to realise the necessary wisdom. Nirvana is eventual with practice and many have attained it in history. The goal of Nirvana is thus not a blind idea promoted by the blind; but a state of awakening led to by the awakened.
21. When something bad, such as being sick happens, it is due to past karma ripening and/or one’s present karma created in this moment. For example, if one has an inexplicable illness that cannot be traced in origin within this life, it is probably due to negative karma ripening from a past life. If one eats too many cookies and becomes sick, it is clearly present negative karma of unchecked greed bearing fruit.
22. There are countless cases of active healing in Buddhism both in the past and in the present. However, Buddhism seldom uses cases of healing to attract devotees, while focusing on its core teachings of practising compassion and realising wisdom.
23. As the workings of karma are dynamic, Buddhists do not believe in fatalism or predestination. The effects of our past negative karma can be diluted by our present positive karma which we actively choose to create now, while our present karma can shape our future at will too.
24. We can learn from our past lives by recollecting them through practising proper and deep meditation – just as the Buddha did. If we find this challenging, we can look at the physical and spiritual state of our present lives and our habitual tendencies to know what we could have done or were like in the past.
25. Many young children with no preconceived ideas can recall their past lives vividly. All babies also exhibit specific untaught character traits which are probably forces of habit carried over from their past lives.
26. The Buddha taught that both men and women have the ability to attain Nirvana. He was also the first founder of a world religion who permitted women to enter monasticism full-time. While one being born a man or woman is a result of karma for various reasons, it is not true that all men are greater than all women, as there are many women who are spiritually greater than men – even in the Buddha’s time.
27. In Buddhism, it is ultimately us who realise timeless liberation ourselves. However, there is the great assistance of many enlightened ones (Buddhas and Bodhisattvas) available to guide us to realise it too.
Interview with an ‘Ex-Monk’ (Part 3)
http://youtube.com/watch?v=S4wKGg4mJ1g
Clarifications
28. The point of becoming a celibate monastic is to focus fully on the spiritual path, which is why monks-to-be voluntarily choose not to marry – without feeling any loss.
29. Like the interviewer did eventually, the interviewee should consider apologising for his very unsettling misunderstanding of Buddhism. According to the Buddhist teachings, unrepented intentional slander of the Buddha’s teachings, which endangers the spiritual lives of others can lead to rebirth for a long time in the hells. However, just as there is no eternal heaven in Buddhist cosmology, there is no eternal hell due to the limitations of one’s negative karma.
30. We hope the interviewee will no longer testify his highly misleading ‘Buddhist’ experiences, especially in the Sunday School that he teaches.
Related Articles
How to Handle Misrepresentations of Buddhism
http://moonpointer.com/new/2010/02/how-to-handle-misrepresentations-of-buddhism
NUS Buddhist Society Clears Pastor Rony’s Misconceptions
http://kentridgecommon.com/?p=6275
Further Reading
Basic & Core Teachings of Buddhism
http://kmspks.org/download/ebook/Lamp08.pdf
On point 7 in the first section, it is actually much less logical to believe that there is a perfectly good God who created and continues to create severely imperfect humans to suffer needlessly when they have done nothing ‘prior’ to their creation to deserve such pain.
On the last video, it will be very interesting if what the child spoke could be recorded and deciphered systematically… if possible at all. I guess it’s not like ‘oo oo ee ah ah tik tank wala bing bang ang chang yang yang’ at all?
Thank you very much – An excellent gift for my timely 63th anniversary birthday on 17th Feb on earth.
Thanks for sharing the clips.
I have only watched the ex-nun clip. I seriously don’t think she was a fully ordained bhiksuni as she doesn’t even get her facts right. Here are my two cents of thoughts:
1. supernatural – there is nothing supernatural at all. The seeds in alaya will ripe if the conditions are right.
2. believe in buddhism – her belief in buddhism is probably “blind-belief”. Buddhism encourage “come and see” , “verify by oneself”. Did she do it?
3. ten years of practice – I doubt so. Her expression doesn’t reflect any calmness one will get from 10 years of serious meditation. Also, she didn’t even know where pu-men-pin is from. I doubt she understand karma too since she is in turn helping others to slam down Buddhism with no facts.
4. Equality of beings – I laughed when the pastor didn’t even know the fact that buddhism emphasizes in equality. What woman is higher than cows? Some of us respect lives even to the extent of not eating meat. I suggest that he needs Basic Buddhism teachings with an open mind.
This clip tells me a very important thing – Right View is very important. It doesn’t matter how long one has associated with Buddhism, the right view matters. When the right-viewed one speaks the non-dharma, non-dharma becomes Dharma. When the wrong-viewed one speaks Dharma, Dharma becomes non-Dharma.
I pray for their well-being and transfer all available merits to them. May they have right view, wisdom and compassion.
First of all, I would like to express my heartfelt thanks to zyrius for this detailed point by point clarification.
I have been searching for posts like these. But so far the posts I have read have yet to include every misconception uttered by the Pastor or have elaborated further on certain points.
This is very useful to me in improving my personal understanding of basic Buddhist concepts. I will remember these points and understand them to the best of my ability so that I may guide others to help Buddhism better.
I agree wholeheartedly with what Joyce has said ‘When the right-viewed one speaks the non-dharma, non-dharma becomes dharma’
May whatever meagre merits I have be shared with all beings so that each and everyone has the chance to be guided by an enlightened being in cultivating and maintaining the right views towards Dharma.
Another point to make is that Buddhism does not tell you to practise meditation for the sole purpose of recalling one’s past lives.
Just in case some get too engrossed in doing that to the extent of neglecting everything else or misunderstanding the true purpose of meditation – which is one of those proven means to help kickstart the awakening of the realisation of our true Buddha nature.
Yes, meditation is mainly for training for calmness and clarity, and other virtues like loving-kindness. In fact, there are no meditation classes specifically for the recollection of past lives – as this ability arises naturally when the mind is well trained.
Reminds me of this entry on the danger of obsession with past lives: http://tinyurl.com/y89ltlc
Zyrius, I very much appreciate your effort in presenting the point-by-point refutations over the misconceptions in the video clips of Pastor Rony Tan (RT) that tried to slam Buddhism in front of his congregation.
Together with Dharma Protector’s blog that runs NUSBS’ effort to address RT’s idiosyncratic prejudices against Buddhism in the same manner, your list completes a full clarification over the video.
However, given that not many netizens are arduous readers nor do they have as good as reading capability and perhaps are more receptive to visual and audio sensory presentation, I request that you also sincerely consider producing the clarifications from your list in the format of videos presentation in the manner of Q&As like those of RT and his sidekicks. Upon that, you could download them in Youtube next to RT’s videos which are publicly accessible now. With the availability of the clarifications in such Youtube format, I believe you will do even a better job.
Besides, one lesson that the incident could teach us was that currently Singapore government was perhaps overly sensitive with the issues of religous harmony and political correctness. Apparently the OB marker in political field is also applied in the field of religious discourse.
Personally, I would think, given the ongoing maturing process of Singapore society, where you can find a high number of educated citizens, it is time for religious groups to conduct a more “open, educational, and intellectual†Q&As rather than friendly but artificial exchanges as seen in the yearly activities of IRO. In the case of RT, I suggest the government should allow Buddhist groups to initiate open debates with him while indemnifying him from religious seditions. Through open discussions as well as challenges of dogmas and the ability to address them, the Buddhists could indeed show the depth and breadth of Buddhist teachings to their own adherents as well as to those of other faiths.
I believe, given its corpus of wisdom and teachings, its philosophy and systematic logic developed throughout more than 2,500 years of collective spiritual experience, the Buddhist intellectuals would be able to easily refute RT or any other over-zealous evangelistic Christian pastors in Singapore if they dare to have such encounters. In fact, such open debates could healthier than “talk behind one’s back sort of approach†as exemplified by the incident of RT. For one thing, I also noticed RT was looking for easy and supposedly soft targets instead of putting his own house in order. If he was really sincere about his own faith while claiming himself to be international preacher, he should instead first and foremost provide answers / refutations over the allegations led by Christian skeptics, eg Sam Harris, who wrote best sellers like “End of Faith : Religion, Terror and the future of Reason†as well as “Letter to a Christian Nation.â€
Indeed, during the lifetime of Shakyamuni Buddha, the Enlightened One had demonstrated time and again how he was able to win over debates with the Hindu external sects, some of whom eventually became his followers upon their convincing over the truth in Buddhism. In the following years during the 7th century, we could also to find Xuanzhang Sanzhang similarly won arguments with clear logic over external sects that were also flourishing concurrently with Buddhism in India. In fact, the long history of Buddhist intellectual debates had developed many logicians extraordinaire.
Chinese historical records also showed verbal lambastes against Buddhism by other religious groups, like the Orthodox Confucianists and Taoists due to growing popularity of Buddhism during its initial development in Medieval China, were not uncommon. Their doctrinal disagreements, however, could be addressed by Buddhist proponents easily as were exemplified by the debates between Taoist Quan zhen sect and Buddhist groups. The debates of doctrinal competitions, which were often won by the Buddhists, were indeed sponsored by the Mongol khans [see: Imperial China 900-1800 by Frederick W Mote]. Even though the Quan zhen’s loss in debates had resulted into its diminished influence subsequently, it didn’t cause disturbances or communal violence.
From the Ming dynasty to the 20th century, there were no lack of Buddhist grandmasters that were able to provide logical answers and refutations over the encroaching doctrines of evangelistic Christianity that oftentimes supported Western imperialism and colonialism under the creed of Gold, God and Glory. Grandmaster Ow-yi (蕅益大师 ) of the late Ming Dynasty as well as Grandmaster Yinshun (å°é¡ºæ³•å¸ˆ) during the Republican era had written convincing articles, eg. “辟邪集†(pi xie ji / collections to overcome external teachings) or “我之宗教观†(wo de zong jiau guan / my religious view) that addressed the many misconceptions against Buddhism as propagated by the Jesuits as well those by the later day evangelistic Christian groups in China.
In recent years, we also witnessed the growth of Christian preachers who are dogmatic and overzealous in their proselytizing works. There is also at least one hard line Islam writers, like Harun Yahya, who followed the same approach as those Christian evangelists. Harun, through his comparative work entitled “Islam and Buddhismâ€, diminished Buddhism to false religion that allegedly practices superstition, idol worshipping and promotion of irrationality.
The Buddhists, however, do not lack resources to answer such false allegations against their religious practices and faith. Within the English language publications, we can find Ven. Dhammika’s latest work entitled ‘ Who’s That Knocking on the Door? A Buddhist’s Guide to Evangelical Christianity’ or A.L. de Silva’s “Beyond Belief†http://buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf . The latter, especially, has gained wide currency and had even been translated into at least 1 non-English language.
Given its unique historical developments, continuing globalizing influences as well as its resources guided by true Dharma, I believe Buddhism would be able to provide answers to all the doctrinal disagreements raised by the evangelists or radical “dakwah†groups. As such, the Buddhists should have enough confidence to engage them in open and mature intellectual exchanges or even debates rather than having such genuine exchanges, which are always there due to long process of indoctrination and religious bigotry, be covered and suppressed under the pretext of political correctness. A can of worms kept inside the brain of the adherents of external sects could be transformed into a can of true friendship and even cross religious and cultural fertilization through wisdom and compassion if there is open and genuine engagement.
Perhaps Ven Kwang Sheng in his capacity as heads of both the Singapore Buddhist Federation and the inter-faith Inter-Religious Organisation (IRO) can initiate such open and genuine exchanges and debates on doctrinal issues with non Buddhists? As demonstrated in the past experience in Medieval China and India as well as the dynamic and open intellectual exchanges in US and in many other open societies, such exchanges might not necessarily result into communal internecine. It is a process that Singapore needs to go through to transform itself into a mature and developed society.
Amituofo
Amituofo.
The clarifications of misconception in Buddhism is very well written. It would be excellent if such clarifications were to be published in the newspaper forum. This is an excellent way and good timing to put the perspectives right, not only to non-Buddhists, the public but also to so called Buddhists. This episode also taught us to examine ourselves as Buddhists, that is if we do not have Right View and do not follow and practise the teachings truthfully, then we would be of no difference from those in the videos..
Rony had picked the right choice – Buddhism. If he had picked some other religions, the outcome may be totally different. Perhaps all his Lighthouses may end up in Bombhouses.
Buddha had always encouraged one not to believe blindly but to analyse and think in a logical way. Put aside religious doctrines, doesn’t Buddha’s teachings beneficial to society? If so, what is the purpose of trying to slander them? When the line is drawn too clearly, it creates conflict. Look at the world today and we understand this is true.
For those who are familiar with the Bible’s doctrines and able to think in a neutral manner, they will agree that Christianity too, has many good doctrines. Perhaps except Geocentrism and the logics of creation – nothing can exist by itself except GOD.
The great philosopher and debater, Acharya NÄgÄrjuna (150~250 CE), once stopped in the midst of a debate and said, “If you continue to bite to words and refuse to think, then this debate cannot continue.†Religion belief is a very personal affair; it reflects the skeleton of the reasoning logics deep inside a person.
the mind of the past, present, future are unobtainable.
Rita, you are crazy because you are not learn the Buddha teachings, you only practise meditation, that is enough because have many of teachings as 84,000 of teachings.
When perform on stage with Pastor, you are happy and make audience laughed at Buddha teachings, now Buddha will laugh at you because you stupid, you used by pastor because the that you are stupid woman
Many thanks zyrius, for posting this point-by-point clarification of the misconceptions perpetuated by those terrible videos.
The videos help to show one thing: if one chooses to be blind, then one will not see the truth even if it stares you in the face. How Rony Tan can have suched a warped view of Buddhist teachings is beyond belief, when a simple google search would easily turn up many good resources on the core teachings of the Buddha.
While I feel mildly infuriated by Pastor Rony and his interviewees who unabashedly display their glee and pride while relating their misconceived ideas of Buddhism, it strikes me more painfully that there are indeed many other so-called Buddhists out there who have similar experiences as well. I have come across temples where they, in order to make things seem much more simple and attainable to new devotees, simplify down concepts and rituals to such an extent that they can be easily misconstrued or misunderstood, which is quite a sad irony for such acts done in good intentions are now slammed in reversal for the same purpose.
This incident may expose the unscrupulous ways of the evangelists, but I think it is also a timely alert for all Buddhists and propagators of Buddhism to reflect on ourselves, and always be mindful and help prevent future occurences of such misconstruements(although it is not possible to entirely eliminate chances of it happening, but at least we do the best we can, especially in the declining era that we are living in now).
so sorry to say this… but i have been trying to forget about this disgusting GUY was trying to do in these videos since before CNY.. but i really really HATE this PASTOR RONY TAN….please make him think 1st before talking….this is already my soft way of conveying my feeling, i could be much much more rude than this… sorry once again bout it…
Thank you too, Zyrius, for your useful clarifications. Below are some attempted replies to the above comments.
1. I think anyone should be welcomed to format the clarifications into video format – as long as no words are changed and are linked back to this post.
2. It is truly hard to find fundamental evangelicals who are open to inter-religious dialogues. I don’t think the govt in interested in inter-religious debates as they are too sensitive. They can lead to more tension than harmony. On suggestions for specific organisations, let’s write to them personally. The more individual responses there are, the better it is. Singapore Buddhist Federation can be reached at buddhist [at] singnet.com [dot] sg and IRO can be reached at http://www.iro.org.sg/website/contact.html
3. On the idea that ‘nothing can exist by itself except God’, this is not true because if this itself is a law of nature, it means nature must exist before God and it can exist without God. A good and almighty creator God cannot exist due to reasons such as these – http://tinyurl.com/badreasoning
4. The Buddha will not laugh at the ignorant but be compassionate with them. Let’s not harbour hatred for the ignorant and do our best to be patient with them to educate them – as the Buddha would too.
5. Indeed, we should not dumb down Buddhism for the less intelligent. Even if aspects of the Dharma are simplified for the less intelligent, it should be made known to them too that what they learn is just the surface of more profound teachings, that they should continue to learn more humbly and in an in-depth manner.
A concise version of this article
is now available at
http://tinyurl.com/ronytan2
The above has been sent to Mr Rony Tan at
lightev [at] singnet.com [dot] sg &
lightmnd [at] singnet.com [dot] sg
The most important thing to learn from this incident is:
Stop commenting and start practicing the Noble Eightfold path ourselves with right wisdom.
Consequently we find that religion is one of the major cause of wars and violence.
Hmmm… Buddhism is one of, if not the least mystical of religions I would think, especially since walking the path to enlightenment is about training the mind to be more and more clear.
A very popular & well-loved Buddhist teacher always advises that as Buddhists we should respect others religious beliefs simply because it works for them…. I guess that is the difference between a Nobel Peace Prize winner & a hate mongerer!
The intentions for his behavior and actions are expplicit and self-explanatory. why buddhism of all religions? because muslims are unlikely to convert as christians and indians are unlikely too.
So what’s the pie left with? The Big “C” !!!
It’s about time people learn to respect each other’s religion. Spiritual path should not be enforced!
To each his own! Get a life!
I find it strange that Pator Ronnie said that the ex-niun could not be found.Why?The ex-nun did not do anything wrong and she should not go into hiding.
Both the ex nun and monk should be verified that what they say about being ex-nun and monk is true.
The Buddhist Authorities xhould verify if it is true that two of them had stayed in the temple.
If there is no evidence that the ex-nun and monk were actually true in what they claim to be ie nun and monk, then pastor Ronnie has committed fraud and should be prosecuted or at least expose him of it.
In fact Jesus had advocated religious tolerance.In the New testamnet, one disciple told Jesus that a man who is not one of us was doing healing miracles.
Jesus said”those who are not agaisnt us is with us”
He never said that that man was possesses by satan.
Whether it’s in any religious books or not, it’s basic humanity to respect each other.
I am skeptical that the ex-nun had experiences of her 5 past previous reincarnations.It is also very unlikely that a Tibetan monk could know her past reincarnations.
Even in deep meditation, it is not possible or easy to recall our past lives.
Hearing a voice is also not typical of Buddhism but more in Christianity.
The effect of deep meditation is Nirvana or the expereince of Nirvana or the no-mind state.
I fell that the Buddhist Authorities or the Goovernment should investigate the authencity of these two inviduals who claimed to be ex-nun and monk.
In the case of the exmonk, it was pastor Ron who asked leading questions like “Do you chant? Do you know the meaning of the chant?etc.
It is very important to find out if these two individuals are not what they pretend to be but was just a set up by Pastor Ron
If this the case then the pastor should be exposed for fraud.
The above 38 points were sent to Pastor Rony Tan’s church by a friend. This is the reply:
‘Thanks for your email. We appreciate your diligence in making those clarifications. We have removed the concerned videos from our website. We totally agree with you that peace and harmony are so important. Best regards, Pastor Colin’
This was my friend’s reply:
Hi Pastor Colin et al, Thank you for your reply. Here are some further suggestions.
1. It is good for Pastor Rony Tan and the other preachers at Lighthouse to also study the official clarifications of the video misconceptions by Kong Meng San Phor Kark See Monastery (Bright Hill Temple), as published at http://www.kmspks.org/download/clear_misconceptions.pdf
2. If any members of Lighthouse asks about the misconceptions, this link can be shared too.
3. The link’s materials are designed to be a poster. It can also be printed and pasted at Lighthouse’s noticeboards.
4. Pastor Rony Tan can also use the materials for his next sermon to clarify his mistakes.
5. The link can also be circulated via Lighthouse’s mailing lists to clarify the misconceptions and live up to Pastor Rony Tan’s resolution to promote inter-religious harmony.
I’ll be visiting Lighthouse, and truly look forward to seeing the above 5 suggestions implemented. Thank you for considering them. Regards.
Think there is no need to check the identities of the so-called ex-monk and ex-nun as it is now common knowledge that their accounts do not represent Buddhism anyway. Even if they were monastics, they were clearly poor ones. In this sense, they already are open frauds of sorts. But of course, you can still write in to the authorities to suggest background check if you wish.
The purpose of checking the validity that the nun and monk had in fact been in ordained as nun and monk as alleged,is that if they were merely posing as nun and monk, then Pastor Ron should exposed as a pastor who is uisng fraudelent tactics to his church’s congregation.
The people should be made known that fraud had been commited by their pastor.
The motive of using such tactics should be exposed.
Buddhists all know that the comments made by the nun, monk and pastor Ron simply show their lack of knwledge about Buddhism.
So I think just giving Pastor Ron clarifiaction about Buddhism will fall on deaf ears as far as Pastor Ron is concerned.
They might not be frauds but just ex-nun and ex-monk with very poor knowledge of Buddhism. Your concern is not invalid though. Why not write to the papers, ISD or Singapore Buddhist Federation about your suspicions?
I am not a Buddhist unfortunately.It is up to the Buddhist Federation to find out who are the ex nun and monk and query them why they said what they said to Pastor Ron.
The things that they said are so preposterous that even I who is not a Buddhist is incensed by what they said.
I find they the ex-nun could go into such deep meditation that she could recalled all her past lives.
;It is not so easy to go into such deep meditation so easily.
Furthermore it takes a very highly spiritual Tibetan monk to know another’s past lives.
If such past lives are so easy to attain, then rebirth or reincarnation would have been fully established beyond any doubt.
The other thing the nun said is that she could know the meaning and how to chant even though she doesnt know Mandarin.
If I were in her position,I would be a more staunch Buddhist then going to be interveiwed to to disparage Buddhism.
The ex monk is more ridiculous that the people who taught him how to chant do not know thje meaning of the chant.
His knowledge of Buddhism is very shallow indeed.Most of his answers were actually given by the pastor for him to answer yes and know.
Giving the clarification about Buddhism will not be read by the congregation of the church.
Hence I feel that if there is fraud Pastor Ron should be exposed and reported in the newspaper.
This is nore effective then all these clarifications here; which I doubt any Christians will read.
This is a follow-up to my earlier comment. Below is the reply from Pastor Colin of Lighthouse Evangelism:
‘Thanks for your suggestions.
Best regards,
Pastor Colin’
Below is my friend’s reply to him:
‘Dear Pastor Colin,
Thank you so much for your reply. You can also invite speakers from Kong Meng San Phor Kark See Monastery or Singapore Buddhist Federation by contacting publicaffairs [at] kmspks [dot] org or buddhist [at] singnet.com [dot] sg respectively, to give talks to the 12,000 affected members of your congregation to clarify the misconceptions. This will truly express repentance and promote religious harmony by undoing all the video mistakes systematically. This is especially important as the videos can still be seen online at http://www.youtube.com/user/miraculoustv and are still discussed about in the press.
If there are no effective remedial actions (such as the above) beyond worded apologies, it seems that the mistakes of Pastor Rony Tan are likely to haunt Lighthouse for indefinite time, which would be most unfortunate. Out of great compassion, many Buddhists are also very worried about the strong impending negative karmic effects that await Pastor Rony Tan, should he not amend for his mistakes as appropriately as he can. In this sense, I believe I speak for many Buddhists.
It would be most wonderful for Lighthouse to be remembered more for its potential graciousness over the incident, than what many still see to be mere reluctant apologies made due to the enforcement of the government. As Pastor Rony Tan said, ‘Let’s put our goal to build a harmonious Singapore a top priority.’ And harmony does begin with the spreading of understanding via proper clarification.
For the sake of greater harmony, thank you for your consideration of the above.
Regards’
CC: Kong Meng San Phor Kark See Monastery & Singapore Buddhist Federation
Hi KeeFreddie, whether you are a Buddhist or not, you’re welcomed to give suggestions on checking whether the interviewees were frauds to the press or the Singapore Buddhist Federation by emailing buddhist [at] singnet.com [dot] sg
You can also send the official Buddhist clarifications of the misconceptions at http://www.kmspks.org/download/clear_misconceptions.pdf to friends, including Christian ones, who might be misled by the videos. For great evidence on rebirth, do study the detailed research results of Dr Ian Stevenson. Cheers!
My expereince with my own family who are Christians would not be bothered even to read all these clarifications mentioned above.
Christians would only read about Christianity.
So I think the site here would only be read by Buddhists only.
I sent this site to my brother who is a devout Christian and just llast Saturday, he said he could not get the site where Pastor Ron interviewed the exnun.
When I was at his house, I manage to get the site where Pastor Ron interveiwed the nun from his note book but he showed no interest in even seeing the video.
So frankly,I can say that all these clarifications are falling on deaf ears to all the Christians.
Pastor Ron apologised only because of the action of the Governemnt.
I would doubt that he would read all the clarifications that you sent to him.
I think only Buddhists would be attracted to this site.
So all these clarifications arent doing the job of correcting all that have been said in Pator Ron’s church.
If the Buddhist Federation really want to set things right the most effective way would be to go on TV together with the exnun and monk if possible.
They should be questioned on what they said to Pastor Ron and then the Buddhist monk can clarify point by point and rebut what was said by them were untrue.
This would be a more effective way then just having this site where only the Buddhist comments on clarification of what Buddhism actually teach.
This is a follow-up to my earlier comment. Below is the reply from Pastor Colin of Lighthouse Evangelism:
‘Thank you once again for your suggestion.
Best regards,
Pastor Colin’
The TV show is a good idea but if as you said, Christians won’t be bothered to read the clarifications, will they bother to meet a scheduled time to watch a TV show on them? Also, it is unlikely the govt will allow such a TV show.
I strongly feel that our Buddhist Federation can and should live up to its role more by doing what is necessary like providing clarifications on Buddhism whenever there is any misconception. By doing so, it not only able to dispel the misconceptions and put things in the right perspective but it also benefits the masses (Buddhists and non-Buddhists)by sharing the truth that will bring peace, harmony and happiness to all during this era that is plagued with much greed, hatred and ignorance…
Agree! Let’s all write in to Singapore Buddhist Federation at buddhist [at] singnet.com [dot] sg to ask for more appropriate action! Snail mail too – because I don’t think SBF is very net-savvy. (Address is at http://www.buddhist.org.sg/sbf/network ) The more Buddhist voices heard, the more effective it will be in letting SBF realise more pro-active action is needed.
Media Corps could perhaps have a program where both Pastor Ron,the ex-nun and monk and a Buddhist monk have a
friendly discussion on TV.Most likely pastor would refuse for obvious reasons.
If it is on TV ,I think all Singaporeans irrespecive of their religions will watch.
The thing that I find most distasteful is that Pastor Ron was simply making fun of Buddhism.
His reply to lighthouse is simply a Thank you for your suggestion.
The Buddhist Federation could let Media Corps know that as Pastor Ron put his talks to the ex-nun and monk on you tube, it is only fair that there should be a right of response which the Gov always insists.
The suggestion by Lighthouse to Pastor Ron to invite a Buddhist monk to go to his church to clarify what was said by e-nun and monk was already rejected by the pastor Ron.
All these doest seem to indicate his sincerity in my opinion, of his apology.
If not for the Gov intervention, I think there he would probably have more ways up his sleeve to slander Buddhism.
The fact that many English young people are attracted to Buddhism, have made the Christian authorities rather nervous.
In fact in the US, there are many yogis and Buddhist monks there, and they have attracted many Americans to the Eastern religions and philosophy.
MediaCorp is unlikely to have such programs because it is govt-controlled and the govt never really allowed religious programs to air – much more a program which shows two religions’ differences. You can write in to MediaCorp cc-ed to SBF to suggest though.
Rony didn’t put his vids on Youtube. He deleted them from his church’s website when he realised they angered many – but it was too late – as they were ripped by netizens and put on Youtube – till this day – to serve as reminders of his grave mistakes. This is despite his ‘plea’ in his open apology to take the vids off.
It’s good that the vids are juxtaposed with the clarifications in the above format – because since the vids are still online, clarifications on them should be online with them too.
You are probably right about media corps as they need permission from the gov.
I wish lighthouse all the best and hope that this site will be read by Christians .
I have stated I am not a Buddhist but I do feel that a more appropiate response is needed.
I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a TV clarification by the Buddhist leaders. However, I am also realistic enough to know it will hardly happen (due to government intervention and the restraint shown by SBF and Lightouse towards this matter)and that most, if not all Christians would not bother to watch, much less to listen attentively with an open mind.
This is perhaps something the layman Buddhist community would have to learn to accept.
My conclusion is that race and relgion are very senstivie issues.Minister Mentor was right to have kept reminding Singaporeans that we are a multiracial and multireligious nation.
Buddhists could have a loving-kindness meditation towards Pastor Ron Tan and all Christians.
This I think, would be the best option to take.
Singaporeans who are English educated will eventually come to the same conclusion as the Westerners who are now more interested in the Eastern religions as they are disappoionted with their Christian faith.
Buddha’s teaching of the 4 noble truths and eight fold path is what will help people who seek the meaning of life.
Hi Freddie, I notice that mentioned you’re not a Buddhist. Here is a link to share on Buddhism. Hope you have fun reading it: http://tinyurl.com/bealamp Amituofo
Hi Shan,
Although I am not a Buddhist,I am practicing Vipasanna Meditation and have attended a 5 day meditation retreat on loving kindness.
I also have read books on Buddhism as well as books on vedanta,biography of saints from all religions. .
Initially I was practicing a Kriya Yoga meditation and belong to a yoga organisation called Self-Realization Fellowship for 10 years.
I did benefitted a lot from practicing the kriya yoga but I changed to Vipassanna meditation after someone lent me 10 video tapes on VM by Goeinka.
I now realise that it is not necessary to belong to any religious organisations because I have come to the conclusion that on a deeper profound level,all spiritual teachings are essentially the same.
I also feel that religions are all man-made as they were formed after the death of the founders like Jesus and Buddha.
Doctrines and dogmas I feel were made by man when they started to form organised religions.
I prefer to use the word spirituality or mysticism as this term accepts the mystical teachings of the founders of all religions.
Someone have written in this blog that Buddha’s teachings are not mystical but I beg to differ.
Actually Buddha’s teachingss essentially is based on the 4 noble truths and the eightfold paths.
Thanks Shan
Since both Vipassana and Metta meditation were taught by the Buddha to facilitate the growth of insight and loving-kindness as part of the process for realising perfect wisdom and compassion as fully enlightened Buddhas, perhaps you are somewhat a Buddhist after all? We need to remember that the Buddha didn’t teach Vipassana merely as a self-improvement exercise. It is for enlightenment.
Have you read the book in recommended link http://tinyurl.com/bealamp ? There are no dogmas in there. In fact, there is a chapter on how to seek truth, that is a teaching by the Buddha that clearly opposes dogmatism and groundless mysticism.
On the idea that all spiritual teachings are essentially the same on a deeper level, this is a common misconception of those who have yet to study all teachings on a deeper level – because there are indeed many irreconcilable differences between some religions. Take for instance, this comparison: http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/beyond-belief02.pdf However, we still have to respect these differences for the sake of religious harmony.
Mysticism emphasises on the direct experience of Truth, which is the main teaching of the Buddha.
There are mystics in all religions.They are the Sufis(Islam)Yogis (Hinduism),Mesiter Eckhart,St John of the Cross,St Theresa of Avia etc (Christianity)the forrest monks (in Buddhism)etc
I have studied all the teachings of all religions such as the the Abhidhamma,Vedanta, the New Testament,Pantajali(yogi)Upanishad (Hinduism)etc.
I am aware that Vipassana Meditation is for enlightenment.
The main thing is to realise the Buddha nature within oneself.
Buddha was born a Hindu and he like Jesus was trying to correct the wrong teachings of Hinduism just like Jesus who was trying to correct the wrong teachings of the Old Testament.Jesus was born a Jew.
It is not possible for me to discuss mysticism in depth here.
I appreciate all your desire to acquaint me on Buddhism.
Re: Mysticism emphasises on the direct experience of Truth, which is the main teaching of the Buddha.
Reply: Semantics perhaps, but mysticism is a term that Buddhism seldom (if ever) uses – probably because it denotes the murky and mystical, while Buddhism prefers more affirmative terms like ‘realisation’ and ‘enlightenment’ which has a more clarifying and demystifying feel.
Re: There are mystics in all religions.They are the Sufis(Islam)Yogis (Hinduism),Mesiter Eckhart,St John of the Cross,St Theresa of Avia etc (Christianity)the forrest monks (in Buddhism)etc
Reply: According to the Buddha, not all mystics realise the truth. For instance, please study the Brahmajala Sutta on how many cling to erroneous teachings: http://tinyurl.com/sutta1
Re: I have studied all the teachings of all religions such as the the Abhidhamma,Vedanta, the New Testament,Pantajali(yogi)Upanishad (Hinduism)etc.
Reply: I think it is an exaggeration to say all the teachings of all religions were studied. For instance, the Buddha’s teachings over his 45 years are recorded in thousands of sutras. Even many full-time monastics have not studied them all yet.
Re: Buddha was born a Hindu and he like Jesus was trying to correct the wrong teachings of Hinduism just like Jesus who was trying to correct the wrong teachings of the Old Testament.Jesus was born a Jew.
Reply: Hinduism did not exist during the Buddha’s time. The popular religion was Brahmanism. It’s not accurate to say the Buddha was born either Hindu or Brahmin because the scriptures never record him embracing these teachings. The Buddha was not focused on correcting the teachings of any one religion alone. As in the Brahmajala Sutta, the Buddha corrected some 62 schools of thought that he realised to be erroneous. I don’t think most Christians see Jesus to be correcting the Old Testament – because if they did, they would no longer study it.
I sincerely hope you will study Buddhism more diligently, so as to benefit more from it. May the blessings of the Triple Gem be with all! Amituofo
Thanks for your reply.I think that one thing that should not be discussed are religions and politics.
While I respect your opinions,I think the best is to agree to disagree.
For myself, I think that spiritual knowledge will only leads to dogmatism and spitiual egotism.,
What is more important is to know our true nature or Buddha nature.
The mind is incapable of experiencing Nirvana and that is why meditation is necessary in order to achieve a no-mind state or egoless state.
Before one can expereince our Buddha nature,the mind has to be transcended and be in the no-mind state.
Exoeriencing this state is enlightenment.
Know who you are or ask the question Who am I?
The mind if it can go before the thought of who I am would enable one to become enlightned.
Re: For myself, I think that spiritual knowledge will only leads to dogmatism and spitiual egotism. What is more important is to know our true nature or Buddha nature.
Reply: If ‘spiritual knowledge will only lead to dogmatism and egotism’, then there would be no need to study ‘all the teachings of all religions’ or any one religion, and there would be no need for anyone to teach them either. The Buddha realise the need to know (understand theory) and to see (realise truth). For instance, if he never taught about Buddha-nature and we do not understand its theory, it would be very difficult for us to realise what it is.
Re: The mind is incapable of experiencing Nirvana and that is why meditation is necessary in order to achieve a no-mind state or egoless state.
Reply: Yes, the Nirvana is the transcendance of the limitations of mind and matter.
What I mean about spiritual knowledge is that this alone is insufficient.I agree that spiritual knowledge is useful as long as one is aware that it is only a means and not the end.
Jesus was a jew and he helped a sheep who fell into a pit during the sabbath.The priests and pharisees criticise him because in Judaism, no one should work during the sabbath.
Jesus told the priests they are hypocrites as they are clean on the outside but filthy on the inside.
Jesus told them that they themselves cannot enter the Kingdom of God and prevent others from doing so as well.
Jesus said it is like the blind leading the blind.
As for spiritual knowledge there was a man who had read all the scriptures
He asked a zen master to take him as a disciple.The master was having tea and asked the man to join him.
The master started to pourthe tea into the cup until it the tea was overflowing.He continued to pour until the man told the master that the cup was already full.
The master then stopped pouring the tea and he told the man that yor mind is so full of spiritual knowledge that hecnat teach him anything.
By the way what is your name?
Do you believe that all spiritual paths will lead to Nirvana?Or is it only Buddhism that one can attain Nirvana?
Re: Jesus told….
Reply: Can’t comment on this as am not familiar, but the ones who need to know this most are not Buddhists as the Buddha taught against animal sacrifice.
Re: As for spiritual knowledge there was a man who had read all the scriptures
Reply: The original story states a professor. It was not stated that he read all the scriptures. It can be seen at http://www.101zenstories.com/index.php?story=1 We need to be mindful with our choice of words.
Re: Do you believe that all spiritual paths will lead to Nirvana? Or is it only Buddhism that one can attain Nirvana?
Reply: Hmmm…. Looks like you really didn’t study all the Buddhist teachings, as you mentioned earlier. Am not suggesting that everyone must study everything, but we have to at least be mindful with our choice of words. If not, we are far from enlightenment and need much much more practice.
The Buddha was clear in his last teaching, in the Mahaparinibbana Sutta, that only the Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nirvana. This is while other paths might have incomplete or imperfect versions of this path. From observation, there is no other set of teachings as complete as the Buddha in advocating the Noble Eightfold Path.
“In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.”
Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh a Vietnamese Sen Master said this
“Do not be idolatatrous about or bound to any doctines or ideology, even Buddhist ones.
Buddhist system of thought are guiding means.
They are not absolute truths.”
It is apparent that you think that only Buddhism is the only path to Nirvana.
It would do you a lot of good if you read about the Upanishads, and new testament and not jsut Buddhist books.
If you believe that only Buddhism can lead one to Nirvana
then you are no different from the Christians,Islam and Judaism.
In Christianity, they believe that unless you accept Jesus as God, you cannot go to heaven for eternity when you die.
In Islam, if you dont accpet Mohammad as the last prophet and acceot that only Allah is God, then you also cant go to heaven after death.
Sp you see religions are very divisive and only Mysticism
can be a UniversaL RELIGION as it accepts all religions as merely paths to the same goal which is Nirvana,Pure Consciousness,Satchitananda,God,Allah,Jehovah etc.Whatever you want to call the Absolute truth doesnt matter.They are all words but have the sme meaning.
Do not be bound to not being bound too. Do not be so proud as to have absolutely no reference points, including words of the Buddha.
“In whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline, Subhadda, there is not found the Noble Eightfold Path, neither is there found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, or fourth degree of saintliness. But in whatsoever Dhamma and Discipline there is found the Noble Eightfold Path, there is found a true ascetic of the first, second, third, and fourth degrees of saintliness.”
This is taught by the Buddha himself in his last sermon. If you don’t think he taught this, or think that it does not makes sense, there is nothing more to say. But do study Buddhism more before you carelessly conclude that he didn’t teach this, or that other paths can lead to the same Nirvana the Buddha taught.
If you think you can attain Nirvana by other means, it’s up to you. But please don’t insist the Upanishads can lead to Nirvana as taught by the Buddha. This would be like Rony Tan putting words in the Buddha’s mouth. Please be careful not to get into trouble. The Buddha taught many teachings that clearly went against the grain of Upanishads. There are also no Buddhas arising from study and practice of the Upanishads.
Re: If you believe that only Buddhism can lead one to Nirvana, then you are no different from the Christians, Islam and Judaism.
Reply: What’s wrong with being different if this is so? You seriously need to read this http://moonpointer.com/new/2009/07/enough-religions-already to know why insisting all paths being the same is dangerous.
Re: In Christianity, they believe that unless you accept Jesus as God, you cannot go to heaven for eternity when you die. In Islam, if you dont accpet Mohammad as the last prophet and accept that only Allah is God, then you also cant go to heaven after death.
Reply: This does not apply to Buddhism at all, because the Buddha did not teach belief in any god as a way to salvation, or that going to a heaven equals to salvation. Nirvana is not any heaven; it is beyond all heavens. Anyway, the God-centric religions don’t advocate or believe in Nirvana; they advocate being with an almighty and good creator God as a personal being, whom the Buddha clearly denied to exist. See http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/godidea.html
Re: So you see religions are very divisive and only Mysticism can be a UniversaL RELIGION as it accepts all religions as merely paths to the same goal which is Nirvana, Pure Consciousness, Satchitananda, God, Allah, Jehovah etc.
Reply: If the mystical versions of all non-Buddhist religions all lead to Nirvana, why are there no Buddhas arising from them to teach about Nirvana and the complete Noble Eightfold Path that the Buddha taught?
Re: Whatever you want to call the Absolute truth doesnt matter. They are all words but have the same meaning.
Reply: If you think words don’t matter, just look at our neighbouring country’s violence over the word Allah. Please don’t play a part in spreading this violence by careless use and equating of words. Different words sometimes are used to mean the same thing, but scripturally, they often mean very different things – and there is no established spiritual path that doesn’t use words and scriptures at all. Even Zen refers to sutras.
Force-fitting different stems of thought into one is potentially dangerous as it can lead to religious disharmony for those who find it abhorrent. If you really believe it’s all the same, why not just set up your own school at your own risk – instead of only insisting your way online to those who don’t buy your thought?
If you truly appreciate the Buddha’s teachings, please study them as they are, humbly – and not form your own opinions without deeper scrutiny and personal practice. All apples might look the same outside but they taste different when eaten and digested – beyond superficial nibbling.
I think that we are not on the same page in our discussion.You apparently didnt catch my inference with regards to dogmatism in Christianity etc.
I guess this blog site is not appropiate for me to discuss spirituality as this is primarily for Buddhist.
I am not trying to insists that you accept what I say.
I also am not interested in setting up any spiritual organisation.
You are at liberty to reject what I say as this means nothing to me.
You have agreed with me that religions are divisive and has been the cause of much violence and wars throughout history.
Pardon me for intruding on this blog which is primarily for Buddhists.
I actually would have appreciated if you could at least give your name instead of writing annonymously.
I shall not commnent anymore because it would not be of benefit to anyone.
I wish you all the best in your spiritual endeavour and hope that you can attain anlightenment in this life.
Re: You apparently didnt catch my inference with regards to dogmatism in Christianity etc.
Reply: You apparently didn’t study the Kalama Sutta, whcih is considered an important basic text for Buddhists, though you claimed to have studied all religions. It’s the Buddha’s famous teaching against dogmatism – that cannot be found elsewhere: http://accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/soma/wheel008.html
Re: I guess this blog site is not appropiate for me to discuss spirituality as this is primarily for Buddhist.
Reply: Buddhism is spirituality for Buddhists.
Re: You have agreed with me that religions are divisive and has been the cause of much violence and wars throughout history.
Reply: Religions need not be divisive if the right teachings are practised. For example, the Buddha taught this:
Hatred cannot be ceased by hatred.
Hatred can only be ceased by love.
This is an eternal law.
I don’t see how a religion based on the above can be divisive if it uses universal love to unite despite differences in views. Buddhists who are divisive don’t adhere to the above teaching properly and need to practise more.
Re: I actually would have appreciated if you could at least give your name instead of writing annonymously.
Reply: Apologies but I have good reasons to use a pen name. WhyNot simply remember me as WhyNot?
Re: I wish you all the best in your spiritual endeavour and hope that you can attain anlightenment in this life.
Reply: I sincerely hope you can learn more about Buddhism systematically and not think you have studied it fully already – because from our discussion, you have yet to scratch the surface of what the Buddha taught. I recommend you signing up for this free e-newsletter to know where to learn more: http://thedailyenlightenment.com/enewsletter/31.php May all be well and happy!
I did not say that Buddhism is dogmatic.I only mention Christianity,Islam and Judaism.
In fact I hold the view that the two most tolerant religions are Buddhism and the Vedanta (this is often refered to as Hinduism but this is not the Hindiusm that we see in the Hidu temples in Serangoon Road.)
All religions teach on love and peace but because religious people tend to insists that their true religion that cause violence and wars.
You yourself hold the view that only Buddhism can lead one to Nirvana.
I did not say that I studied all religions.I only say that I have read books in all relgions like the Gita,Upanishad,The Abhidharmma, Sufism,Kabbalah,Theosophy Vedanta, the autobiography of all saints of all religions like Ramakrishna,Ramana Maharishi,Paramahansa Yogananda Nisagarddatta,Krishamurti,Ajahn Chah whose teachings on Buddhism especially insight Meditation was written by his Western discip0le like Jack Kornfield,Tibetan Yoga, Tibetan book of the dead,Mysticism,the vision of Dhamma ,Milarepa ,Tibetan yoga, the path of Serenity and insight by Henepola Gunaratana and many more.
It is of course not possible to really as you put it study all religions in detail.
I am not interested in studying the Buddhist suttras etc.as I do not wish to be a a Buddhist.
It is also not possible to study in detail all the religions.
I think it is not polite to discuss with me using your pen name.
I dont wish to belong to any religions
Finally please do not accuse me of saying that I have studied all religions.I only say that I have read books of all religions except the Koran.
Reading is different from studying.
Most people use pseudonyms on the internet, that’s the way it goes in the virtual world. It’s a mutual understanding that all netizens respect each other’s privacy, I think it’s utterly arrogant to want the party that you are engaging with to reveal themselves.
You did use the word “studied all†and i quote… [I have studied all the teachings of all religions such as the the Abhidhamma, Vedanta, the New Testament, Pantajali (yogi) Upanishad (Hinduism) ETC. - keefreddie on March 17, 2010 10:16 ]
I guess this is where all the misunderstanding comes from. Let’s us all be mindful of what we post on the net.
From my limited knowledge of the world religions, as i stand corrected, only Buddhism and Jainism use the term Nirvana – and defined differently too. Buddhists will certainly not agree on Jainism Nirvana and vice versa. So if you are talking about Nirvana in Buddhism, yes, only by practicing Noble Eight-fold path that Buddha had taught can lead to Nirvana and no other way. If you are talking about Nirvana in Jainism or in New Age stuff, it’s only natural that most Buddhists will disagree, whether this may or may not be considered as dogma. I guess you were not being specific which kind of Nirvana you were referring to and it’s only natural to think you are misinterpreting Nirvana in Buddhism when you comment on a Buddhist blog.
This thread has digressed too far. please used Moonpointer Wall for further discussion if you want.
Please refrain from putting words in other religions’ mouths. ‘Nirvana’ is a term used only by Buddhists and Jains and in the Buddha’s time, he taught personally and harmoniously that Jains’ teachings are erroneous, as recorded in the suttas.
This is the last warning. Please don’t become like Rony Tan, whom you spoke against originally – by misrepresenting any religion. Your name Freddie Kee I assume is real. Unhappy netizens might report you for all your words used unmindfully here which are recorded here for good. Don’t make more mistakes with your carelessness.
Please see this quote from you, with double ‘ALL’ plus ‘ETC’ – which implied you studied absolutely ALL – ‘I have studied ALL the teachings of ALL religions such as the the Abhidhamma, Vedanta, the New Testament, Pantajali(yogi)Upanishad (Hinduism) ETC.’ Please train in your mindfulness with words as they can create needless misunderstandings.
It is impolite to harp on wanting real names in the internet world. Please visit other websites to see their comments to realise how very few use their real names. When in Rome, please get used to the way Romans do things – whether you like it or not – unless you want to be unhappy in Rome while making Romans unhappy.
It’s sad that you do not wish to learn about Buddhism, especially since you want to realise Buddha-nature. All the best, Freddie. Amituofo
zlyrica,if you go to the website called ecare2 spirituality,there is a discussion on spirituality.You are not allowed to post your comments there if it is anonymous.Some participants even have their photos on their profile.
As regards to my writing that I have studied all religions,I meant that I have read many books of all the religions except the Koran.
It would be obvious that I cant really study in depth all the religions as it would really be an impossibility.
Regarding using the word Nirvana your response on this reminds me of the Muslims who created a big fuss because Christians use Allah to mean God.
The Muslims think that only Muslims can use the word Allah and no one else.So in this case according to you no one except Buddhists can use the word Nirvana.
To warn me is laughable because I did not speak in public regarding all the things that I have said here.
This site will only be read by the Buddhists.Furthermore, this was only a discussion between two individuals only.To say that I am like pastor Ron is ridiculous.You can rteport me to the Government if you like.
Of course my real name is Freddie.
As this blog is only for Buddhists I shall not be writing here anymore.
Wishing you peace and love in the name of Buddha.
Every website has its own rules. When in Rome, do as Romans do – especially since it is not immoral in any sense. Blog comments here are not like a forum. They require no real names of photos. Even many forums don’t require real names.
Here you go again commenting carelessly when you said this – ‘I have read many books of ALL the religions except the Koran.’ This implies you read many books about Buddhism too, but as proven in our discussion, you obviously did not learn enough about it.
If your name is Freddie Kee, can I call myself Freddie Kee and say things in your name too? Obviously this is disrespectful. Likewise, when you insist on using Nirvana to mean what is not Nirvana as taught by the Buddha, it is disrespectful. Why are you not paying attention to churches and mosques being burnt in Malaysia due to dispute over the word ‘Allah’. Even if you think the disputes are silly, the destruction is REAL. Words can be dangerous. If you pay attention to Singapore law, it persecutes even Facebook users who are Singaporeans, when they are racist in their online remarks.
Please honour your words to stop commenting if you really mean to stop. You have said you are stopping many times already.
I don’t think any webmaster will go and check your real identity before they allow your comments in that website. Just like Facebook, they required your real names, but many don’t use their real names there too. Anyway, as much as we respect the name you chose to post in this blog, please do so with others’ names and religious terms.
I’m sorry if “studied all†to you means “reading manyâ€. I wouldn’t have known that. I don’t think anyone would know that too. But if it’s a mistake that on your part, a graceful apology would be nice rather than trying to wriggle your way through to justify yourself.
No one forbade anyone or any religion to use the word “Nirvanaâ€. As mentioned, Nirvana in Buddhism and Jainism or other stems of thought have different meanings. Whether you like it or not, internet remarks can be prosecuted in Singapore’s court of law. Unless you have badly defamed Buddhism or other religions like Rony Tan, no one will report you. But why take your chances? Good to be more mindful of your words and stop twisting or putting words in others’ mouths.
This is a Buddhist site, but all are welcome to read and share. But if sharing means doing it the way you just did, it will not be tolerated. Thank you and may you be well and happy.
May I also add that if he could say that ‘Satan’ puts demonic thoughts and ideas into our head, then any other religion with a ‘Satan’ (Mara in Buddhism),can very well say that for any other religions?
Struck me that in the videos, Rony Tan put words in both mouths – of ‘Satan’s’ and the Buddha’s.
For those interested, there is a difference between the concept of Satan and Mara:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thedailyenlightenment-realisation/message/199