A friend once asked me
to never forget her,
to remember to ‘save’ her,
to lead her to Pure Land,
should I reach there first.
I didn’t promise her
because me being mindful of her
cannot bring her to Pure Land,
while it is her mindfulness of Amituofo [Amitabha Buddha]
that can lead her to Pure Land.
Amituofo is already her best friend,
instead of me,
whether she knows this or not.
He already made unshakable vows to help all.
Who am I, an unenlightened fool to compare?
I might not reach there faster.
Please don’t place any ‘bets’ on me.
I won’t place ‘bets’ on her either.
Let us all just be mindful of Amituofo,
And he will do the rest!
(pic: http://cafepress.com/+amituofo_ringer_t,16932044)
“Back to the context of the original post, the promise discussed about is about Person A ‘bringing’ Person B to Pure Land AFTER Person A has reach Pure Land. (The below does not refer to the original post.)”
Why not? If Person A doesn’t reach Pure land, then Person B can’ go to Pureland right? Or do you mean Person A can bring Person BEFORE Person A has reached Pure land?
“It is true, however, that some Buddhists are satisfied when someone else promise to ‘save’ them, and become complacent. When unsure if this might be so, it is safer to not promise, while continually urging them to join group practice. ”
I did not deny the possibility of this happening for some Buddhists. However the main thing is, urging them to join group practice would not work in the first place, if they were truly complacent. Complacency is very likely to be there, with or without the promise. Cos the main thing is lack of understanding about Buddhism (liberation) and Amitabha Buddha’s vows.
“If a promise can be properly explained and understood by Person B in a mature way, Person B probably would not ask for such a promise. Those who keep asking others to ‘save’ them usually don’t understand Buddhism well enough. For example, mature Pure Land practitioners know Amitabha Buddha had vowed to help them, and simply practise accordingly. They don’t expect other practitioners to vow (aka promise) to help them. It is thus better to urge them to learn and practise more – with them if necessary.”
Yes, you are right in a way. Vice versa, if a person is really mature enough to be persuaded by you to join group practice, he or she wouldn’t have asked in the first place about you promising to save him or her too.
When some of those mature practitioners don’t expect others to vow or promise to ‘save’ them, it could be partly due to the fact they know others would reject them outright in a similar manner shown in the writer’s comments and yours.
We must be careful not to discriminate too much about mature or non-mature Buddhists.
To sum it up, there is no promise when one is unenlightened. That ‘promise’ was more of a way to show one’s motivation to cultivate compassion in helping others should they truly succeed.
No one can really promise anyone anything in terms of spiritual attainment or even URGE anyone to practise well or more (since we are all unenlightened), but we can show in different ways our willingness to cultivate compassion; to motivate ourselves to guide them with whatever limited abilities we have.
We don’t need to wait to be enlightened like a Buddha. There are things we can do to help others in their spiritual path even when we are not enlightened in any way. What matters is our real intention and motivation when helping others.
PersonB can never go to Pure Land via PersonA unless PersonA is Amitabha Buddha. All PersonA can do is encourage PersonB to practise accordingly to go Pure Land. And this encouraging should take place now. I read this as the essence of the original post (blogged article).
If PersonB is too complacent to join group practice, how can PersonA’s promising to ‘save’ PersonB help? It would feed complacence instead. If PersonB requires a promise by PersonA, it is better that PersonA encourages PersonB to learn to Dharma well and practises with PersonB. This is spiritual friendship in practical action.
Being rejected of promises by PersonA doesn’t matter much if PersonB knows Amitabha Buddha never rejects anyone. Note that even though Amitabha Buddha vows to help all beings, each being must not be complacent, and must practise accordingly to be helped. This is why complacence is the main issue here, not ‘promises’. To crave for a promise to be saved is to be complacent or to want to be complacent, without putting in the right efforts.
The unenlightened can still make promises. Every Buddha-to-be was once unenlightened, when they made vows as beginner Bodhisattvas. Back to the context of the original post, its main message is on not making unwise promises, while guiding those who want promises in the right direction. The unenlightened can still guide the unenlightened as long as the guide is more well learned and practised in the aspects guided. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo
“PersonB can never go to Pure Land via PersonA unless PersonA is Amitabha Buddha. All PersonA can do is encourage PersonB to practise accordingly to go Pure Land. And this encouraging should take place now. I read this as the essence of the original post (blogged article).”
Nope, that’s not what I meant. The promise was never to imply or indicate I’m a Buddha. And yes, I also agree that the encouraging should take place now.
“If PersonB is too complacent to join group practice, how can PersonA’s promising to ‘save’ PersonB help? It would feed complacence instead. If PersonB requires a promise by PersonA, it is better that PersonA encourages PersonB to learn to Dharma well and practises with PersonB. This is spiritual friendship in practical action.”
Yes indeed person A’s promise would not help. But that’s not what I am talking about. I’m it can be done concurrently, not one after the another.
Person A can indeed encourage Person B to learn Dharma well and practise with Person B. However, if Person B is interested in the Dharma and not in Pureland, then Person A needs to be know when to back off.
I don’t know how long has the writer’s friend been practising the Dharma, and the friend may be interested in Pureland simply because the writer has more time to interact with her.
Because it seems to me no amount of encouraging can help a person who is truly complacent to learn Dharma or practise the Pureland method, WITH OR WITHOUT promise.
There are some people who can be slowly led into learning Dharma with ‘promise’; just like in the scriptures there are some who were not interested in learning the Dharma due to complaceny, but were attracted to learning the Dharma via skilful means. Some of them involved a parent dangling financial rewards to a son.
“Being rejected of promises by PersonA doesn’t matter much if PersonB knows Amitabha Buddha never rejects anyone. Note that even though Amitabha Buddha vows to help all beings, each being must not be complacent, and must practise accordingly to be helped. This is why complacence is the main issue here, not ‘promises’. To crave for a promise to be saved is to be complacent or to want to be complacent, without putting in the right efforts.”
Being rejected of promises may not matter to some, but may matter to the writer’s friend. We do not know her well. It does not really need many years of practice, to know that any Buddha does not reject anyone who wants to practise well to gain rebirth into their Purelands.
Again I do not dispute that promises might lead to complaceny, but promises can also inspire faith. It really depends on how the promise is made.
If the writer’s friend entire intention was to crave for the promise, get the promise and not put in even a single bit of right effort, then obviously he or she isn’t suitable even for group practice, much less learning the Pureland method. It is an attitude problem caused by lack of understanding and faith.
“Back to the context of the original post, its main message is on not making unwise promises, while guiding those who want promises in the right direction. The unenlightened can still guide the unenlightened as long as the guide is more well learned and practised in the aspects guided. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo”
Yes, I am merely saying wise promises can be made even by the unenlightened. Although it would be definitely more helpful and more convincing if the guide is more learned and practised in the aspects guided, making the promise could be a strong motivational force to practise even better.
Guides who are well-learned and practised in the aspects guided doesn’t necessarily mean they know the skilful means to guide that person or that the affinity with that person is definitely unshakeable.
There was one example when the Buddha tried various ways to start preaching the Dharma to an old lady. But the lady simply avoided the Buddha from all possible directions. When she couldn’t avoid, she simply cried.
Then Buddha asked Venerable Ananda to go instead. Venerable Ananda was greeted very warmly by the old lady and the she attained some form of spiritual progress after Venerable Ananda’s teaching of the Dharma.
Wise promises can be a skilful means. Wise promises can be a strong motivational force for the practitioner him or herself to practise better.
Back to the context of the original post (Let’s not digress), PersonB is ALREADY interested in going to Pure Land. If it is true that ‘no amount of encouraging can help a person who is truly complacent to learn Dharma or practise the Pureland method, WITH OR WITHOUT promise’, then the onus lies entirely on PersonB to become diligent.
Yes, “there are some people who can be slowly led into learning Dharma with ‘promise’â€, and the promise of mindfulness of Amitabha Buddha is birth in his Pure Land. Back to the context of the original post, PersonA never rejected PersonB. The article ended with encouragement to practise together.
Yes, ‘promises can also inspire faith’, but they might also lead to complacency for the person promised to, of given unskillfully. There are already Buddhists who are complacent in practice when they think Pure Land is always around, life after life. In the Pure Land context, there are no promises that can inspire more faith than that of Amitabha Buddha, plus encouragement by Dharma friends to practise together.
PersonA was encouraging PersonB to practise together, to take her mind off craving for any promise. With practice, craving for promise will fade away. Encouragement for more learning and group practice will instill the right attitude, understanding and faith.
On affinity to guide, let’s just do the best we can and not keep thinking whether we might be able to help or not. A group that practises together is already the best form of ‘group promise’ in action – to encourage one another to go Pure Land. Practise, practise, practise. Let’s practise now. If not, all this is just empty talk. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo.
If Person B is truly interested in going to Pureland, why would she crave a promise from the writer?
The writer rejected his friend’s request for a promise. That was what I understood. And my point is still the same; the promise can be made concurrently together with the encouragement for group practice.
“Yes, ‘promises can also inspire faith’, but they might also lead to complacency for the person promised to, of given unskillfully. There are already Buddhists who are complacent in practice when they think Pure Land is always around, life after life. In the Pure Land context, there are no promises that can inspire more faith than that of Amitabha Buddha, plus encouragement by Dharma friends to practise together. ”
Yes, an encouragement to go to group practice can be unskilful as well. Yes, there wasn’t any intention on my part to imply that encouragement by Dharma friends to practise together is necessarily useless. Cos the onus is really on the person to learn, with or without encouragement.
“PersonA was encouraging PersonB to practise together, to take her mind off craving for any promise. With practice, craving for promise will fade away. Encouragement for more learning and group practice will instill the right attitude, understanding and faith.”
Craving for promise is one danger, craving for the need to practise together is also another danger. Yes, with practice, craving for promise will fade away, but for some it may also turn out to be otherwise. Craving for encouragement to learn, to go for group practice is also something we should take note, not just about craving for promise.
“On affinity to guide, let’s just do the best we can and not keep thinking whether we might be able to help or not. A group that practises together is already the best form of ‘group promise’ in action – to encourage one another to go Pure Land. Practise, practise, practise. Let’s practise now. If not, all this is just empty talk.”
Of course, I understand that. Everything is empty talk if the person does not see the need to go for group practice despite encouragement.
Practise cannot be described so simply in words. Love, love, love cannot bring a person to understand what is love.
If a group practising together is the best form of ‘group promise’ – to encourage one another to go Pure land together, then the writer wouldn’t need to bring up this topic at all.
I don’t think the writer didn’t have the wisdom to mention and emphasise group practice in the first place. According to you, any good Buddhist would have done so.
If the writer did emphasise and the writer’s friend did understand, she would not have asked for a promise in the first place, and hence this topic would not have appeared in this blog.
Obviously, PersonB wants to go Pure Land, but has her priorities in terms of how to get there wrong – focusing on wanting a promise from PersonA instead of getting on with more personal learning and practising. PersonA rejected PersonB’s request because she decided that it was not healthy, and guided her to see this, while not giving up on encouraging her to practise personally and together. In this sense, there is an unspoken promise in action already – unspoken to guard against PersonB’s complacency. Whether PersonB responded/responds wisely is up to her. We don’t know the ending.
On why the original post was written, I guess it’s to share with PersonB, including general readers, on the importance of getting priorities right – to practise in accordance with Amitabha Buddha’s vows (promises), instead of harping on wanting someone else’s promises. It’s probably part of PersonA’s continual attempts to encourage PersonB to learn and practise together too.
Practice cannot be described fully in words. To know what it entails, practise. Just practise. No need to crave to practise. If there is craving to practise, practise anyway – till the craving fades away with better practice. There is no other way. Let’s not go around in loops and just begin to practise. The Buddha taught that there are two kinds of desire – that which push us towards liberation and that which binds us. To be ambivalent, to not use desire skilfully and remain stagnant is to stay stuck where we are, going in the circles of useless mental fermentations. Practise, practise, practise. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo.
“Obviously, PersonB wants to go Pure Land, but has her priorities in terms of how to get there wrong – focusing on wanting a promise from PersonA instead of getting on with more personal learning and practising. PersonA rejected PersonB’s request because she decided that it was not healthy, and guided her to see this, while not giving up on encouraging her to practise personally and together. In this sense, there is an unspoken promise in action already – unspoken to guard against PersonB’s complacency. Whether PersonB responded/responds wisely is up to her. We don’t know the ending. ”
Person B would not have focused on wanting a promise from A if A was clear about group practice from the very start. If B were to be reading this she might start to crave for unspoken promises for people to help her guard against her complacency.
Yes whether Person B responded/responds wisely is up to her. Very often the ending is important as it may show us important lesson and yet we are unlikely to hear anything more about the ending.
Complacency and dependency, somehow similar, somehow different, yet somehow linked.
“On why the original post was written, I guess it’s to share with PersonB, including general readers, on the importance of getting priorities right – to practise in accordance with Amitabha Buddha’s vows (promises), instead of harping on wanting someone else’s promises. It’s probably part of PersonA’s continual attempts to encourage PersonB to learn and practise together too.”
Sure, I have no doubts about that. I was mentioning about how wanting someone else’s promises need not necessarily be seen in a completely bad light. It seeems that people responding to my comments were harping on something different from what I was sharing about.
“Practice cannot be described fully in words. To know what it entails, practise. Just practise. No need to crave to practise. If there is craving to practise, practise anyway – till the craving fades away with better practice. There is no other way. Let’s not go around in loops and just begin to practise. The Buddha taught that there are two kinds of desire – that which push us towards liberation and that which binds us. To be ambivalent, to not use desire skilfully and remain stagnant is to stay stuck where we are, going in the circles of useless mental fermentations. Practise, practise, practise. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo. ”
Practise without knowing what is practice?
One who has craving to practise can practise till craving fades?
So can one who has craving for others to promise them continue to ask till he or she no longer feels like wanting people to promise them?
Since he or she is likely to be rejected by 10 out of 10 mature Pureland Buddhists, maybe that craving can be a practice for him or her.
Yes, the key is to use desire/craving skilfully. Thank you for saying that.
All mental fermentations are useless if one does not know how to use them wisely.
Good group practices offer Dharma lessons too, on how to practise well. PersonB should just join in to learn and experience the value of such sessions. The original post is just a short article. In real life, am sure PersonA went at length to show PersonB the value of group practice too.
There is no point for anyone to crave for unspoken promises because one will never know if such promises are made since they are unspoken. Also, since those who make unspoken promises have the right to give them up since nothing was ever openly promised, it is dangerous for anyone to depend on such them. The vows of Amitabha Buddha are truly dependable though.
No one can stop PersonB from asking others to promise to save them, but she would have to realise its pointlessness in time, and focus on right practice, in order to make it to Pure Land. Desire is a raft to ride to the shore of liberation before abandoning it. Pure Land practice is based on right faith and aspiration. Aspiration is driven by positive desire to advance in the right direction. It is totally natural to crave to practise at first, but as one practises better and approaches single-mindedness, craving dissipates. Here, craving refers to negative desire.
The ending will be good as long as PersonA continues to encourage PersonB to practise to reach Pure Land and that PersonB does accordingly. I just asked the writer, who is too busy to participate in the lengthy discussion here. She said PersonB is still contemplating to join group practice, but is now more likely to do so. She hopes that everyone who is like PersonB, who read her article, can join group practice too. She browsed through this thread and said she agrees with my comments. So, let’s not worry about PersonB and just practise diligently ourselves. If not, we might become complacent like PersonB. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo.
“In real life, am sure PersonA went at length to show PersonB the value of group practice too. ”
Maybe yes. I do not know. But the curiosity is why person B would crave for the promise if Person A went at length to show the value of group practice.
“There is no point for anyone to crave for unspoken promises because one will never know if such promises are made since they are unspoken. Also, since those who make unspoken promises have the right to give them up since nothing was ever openly promised, it is dangerous for anyone to depend on such them. The vows of Amitabha Buddha are truly dependable though.”
If person B read what you had written, she would have the concept of unspoken promise in her mind. She would somehow interpret on her own what seems to be unspoken promises. I also learnt about unspoken promises from you here.
If Person A had no notion of making unspoken promises, then there is no question of having any right to give up anything…
I never said the vows of Amitabha Buddhas were not dependable in any way, just in case you took it that way.
“No one can stop PersonB from asking others to promise to save them, but she would have to realise its pointlessness in time, and focus on right practice, in order to make it to Pure Land. Desire is a raft to ride to the shore of liberation before abandoning it. Pure Land practice is based on right faith and aspiration. Aspiration is driven by positive desire to advance in the right direction. It is totally natural to crave to practise at first, but as one practises better and approaches single-mindedness, craving dissipates. Here, craving refers to negative desire. ”
Yes, that is true. No one can stop Person B from asking many others. I wouldn’t stop her either since you agree with me that she would realise it would be in vain or futile sooner or later.
Right faith and aspiration is based on right understanding.
As one practises better and REALLY achieves single-mindedness, yes, craving can dissipate but not totally, or merely under control. Unless you are talking about attainment of Arahantship.
The fact remains that the progress in practice is usually unstable for some Buddhists, beginners or not. This is mentioned in Ksitigarbha Sutra of Original Vows.
Craving is usually negative or phrased in a negative way from what I have understood so far.
“The ending will be good as long as PersonA continues to encourage PersonB to practise to reach Pure Land and that PersonB does accordingly. I just asked the writer, who is too busy to participate in the lengthy discussion here. She said PersonB is still contemplating to join group practice, but is now more likely to do so. She hopes that everyone who is like PersonB, who read her article, can join group practice too. She browsed through this thread and said she agrees with my comments. So, let’s not worry about PersonB and just practise diligently ourselves. If not, we might become complacent like PersonB. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo.
Yes, I have no doubt that if the conditions are indeed as you said for Person A and B. Will the conditions be that sufficient and stable for A and B? I hope to know more.
Thank you for asking the writer. I too hope along with her that every person like person B would join group practice.
But in reality, the motivation and acceptance varies according to each individual.
As can be seen from the writer’s sharing that Person B is still contemplating group practice. How long has Person B been contemplating since Person A’s dialogue with her in the above original post? What were her reservations then and what are they now?
It’s good that the writer agrees with your comments. I wrote what I wrote not to seek anyone’s agreement or acceptance. I was sharing my thoughts.
And no, I won’t worry about Person B cos person B already has a very good spiritual friend in Person A.
Some of us will become complacent in one way or another, with or without having person B’s way of thinking. That’s why we are in samsara. That’s why there will always be the need for more aspiring Bodhisattvas to cultivate higher level of wisdom and compassion.
PersonB read this last night and chatted with the writer, and realised the risk of believing in imperfect unspoken promises which might be broken and that it is better to just believe in Amitabha Buddha fully and follow this Buddha’s advice to practise diligently, especially since time is running out in the sense that she, like us, can die any time.
Negative craving can dissipate enough, even if not completely (which is possible only when enlightened), to not obstruct positive aspiration to reach Pure Land with adequate practice.
PersonB read these comments and she realised she had been thinking needlessly in circles since around the time the article was written, to procrastinate dedicated practice for no good reason, and decided to just let go of her complacence and laziness. She will join group practice next week. PersonB can stand for anyone I would think. She hopes everyone discussing this will heed PersonA’s advice too. It’s time for us to engage in serious personal practice (and learning) too, individually or in group, if not already, or we will never reach Pure Land. Na Mo A Mi Tuo Fo.